Curse

byteme! · Jan 23, 2010, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

EDA was hacks in Codex. It broke the format every day it appeared.

No one cares about Codex. Let it die. For the 50 or so random people who do care.......

Oh well.

Krill · Jan 23, 2010, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Also: Since when have R/A's been anywhere close to imbalanced with Escape gone?

Not that you would care but the SA R/As are still big problem in HA, even more so than the Escape R/As were. They are now incorporated into practically every build one way or another. I don't really see any possible defense for them, anet does these stupid buffs trying to get certain classes (like sins) into GvG and when it fails they never fix the fallout into other formats.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Not that you would care but the SA R/As are still big problem in HA, even more so than the Escape R/As were. They are now incorporated into practically every build one way or another. I don't really see any possible defense for them, anet does these stupid buffs trying to get certain classes (like sins) into GvG and when it fails they never fix the fallout into other formats.

This is exactly what I am talking about. Reset all of the skills for ONE month back to their original forms. It will make the meta fun for a month, and then work to balance the skills from that point. That way, all the skills go back to what they were intended for in the first place, and we get a blast from the past like some great band getting back together for a concert. You then balance those skills from the starting point. It is getting to the point where the pvp formats are bleeding together and they are way too convoluted atm to be any fun. Throwback would be fun for a month and then we could start seeing some semblance of balancing these skills in a coherent fashion. If it doesn't work, it doesn't matter. At least it would be more fun that what is going on now.

Krill · Jan 23, 2010, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

This is exactly what I am talking about. Reset all of the skills for ONE month back to their original forms.

While that may sound kinda fun, don't forget about some of the skills that actually have been fixed. For example, bad as sway is in the HA meta again it, sway builds were insanely powerful before the nerfs to soul reaping, protective was kaolai, weapon of warding, splinter weapon and warmongers weapon. Some other skills that come to mind are watch yourself, shields up, signet of humility, mantra of inscriptions, strength of honor, signet of judgment, balthazar's pendulum, rend enchantments, ineptitude, ballad / song of resto, harrier's toss...well you get the idea. There have been a lot of "old" skills that were fixed the the last few years. The problem lies entirely now with skill buffs that were poorly designed (seemingly at random), poorly implemented (many at a time) and even more poorly balanced (slowly, if ever).

Sifow Chan · Jan 23, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Always hurting the Paragons because of other professions.

Barrage · Jan 23, 2010, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Ok really, this is just the "What is nerfed" section of the notes right? Where are the buffs, I mean really.

FoxBat · Jan 23, 2010, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Also: Since when have R/A's been anywhere close to imbalanced with Escape gone?

HA monks apparently can't survive without channeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I hear way more complaining about how the game isn't fun anymore, or it's broken etc. why not start over,

Nightfall (or possibly, factions) is what people say "broke" PvP. Albeit proph was fairly broken for the first 6 months. Even then it's arguable that the ladder structure of the time (farming as many wins as possible to qualify for tournament) was obscuring the kind of blockway/stall/npc farm tactics that AT competition has exposed. Simply reverting the skill values isn't going to deliver the "golden age" that some folks here yearn for.

jazilla · Jan 23, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

While that may sound kinda fun, don't forget about some of the skills that actually have been fixed. For example, bad as sway is in the HA meta again it, sway builds were insanely powerful before the nerfs to soul reaping, protective was kaolai, weapon of warding, splinter weapon and warmongers weapon. Some other skills that come to mind are watch yourself, shields up, signet of humility, mantra of inscriptions, strength of honor, signet of judgment, balthazar's pendulum, rend enchantments, ineptitude, ballad / song of resto, harrier's toss...well you get the idea. There have been a lot of "old" skills that were fixed the the last few years. The problem lies entirely now with skill buffs that were poorly designed (seemingly at random), poorly implemented (many at a time) and even more poorly balanced (slowly, if ever).

the nerfs to soul reaping fix those problems you mentioned though. I am not saying to revert the attributes, just the skills. I hear way more complaining about how the game isn't fun anymore, or it's broken etc. why not start over, but with the added bonus that the devs know what NOT to do this time around to the skills. We have waited for a change for almost 5 months now. What would a month of awesome throwback fun be to the meta now? It would be fun. It would be like it is now too, but mostly people are mad because the meta is stale. I don't remember a time when there wasn't something OP'ed. It's always been this way. At least with a throwback, you get to adjust the skills from the point of how they were intended in the first place.

lutz · Jan 23, 2010, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

Not that you would care but the SA R/As are still big problem in HA, even more so than the Escape R/As were. They are now incorporated into practically every build one way or another. I don't really see any possible defense for them, anet does these stupid buffs trying to get certain classes (like sins) into GvG and when it fails they never fix the fallout into other formats.

I thought the best defense against squishy frontline characters with halfway-decent DPS is to just kill them?

Giga_Gaia · Jan 23, 2010, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Problem is that R/A's can still pack plenty of survival since they only need to keep spamming 123-123 to kill something.

DarkNecrid · Jan 23, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrage

Ok really, this is just the "What is nerfed" section of the notes right? Where are the buffs, I mean really.

I don't know why you want buffs when:
-A lot of the skills in that list that are getting nerfed were skills that were buffed within the past year.
-Buffs (well at least ArenaNets) have tended to actually remove more skills from being viable than actually making more skills viable. (look at all the Elite Skill changes, etc)
-It's a lot easier & safer to nerf something that is a problem than buff something to counter the problem. Something being nerfed badly isn't a real annoyance to anybody except people who can only use that one thing to win, something being buffed too much is annoying for everybody because EVERYONE runs the overpowered skill(s) and that is a problem because it makes the game too repetitive etc.

Don't buff just because "no buffs?".

That just leads to ArenaNet nerfing them again a cpuple months down the road.

Nimble Night · Jan 23, 2010, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1.

How does that make it ok? He can be perma-snared but someone has to snare them so its balanced? Having a short duration and recharge is what makes it overpowered. It makes a mockery of hex removal when it has a 5 second recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

However, I do find Winter's to be completely insane. It has a fairly short recharge, and is basically weaken knees+snare.

The main problem I have with Winter's Embrace is that there are already 2 non-elite spammable snares, (FGust and Shard Storm), buffing a 3rd makes the bar practically immune to shut-down. On top of this its only 5e, which is pretty stupid. Due to all these retardedly cheap and spammable snares, the only way to shut the bar down is to Powerblock it. I have never liked this skill as it puts far too much emphasis on your ping, (or interrupt bot). To deal with this pretty much everyone has switched to fast cast water eles again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

The thing that is pushing that bar over the edge is definitely MoI

I wont argue that MoI is a poorly designed skill that promotes derogatory play. However, I have always believed that the main problem was Freezing Gust and Winters Embrace. Without the spammable snares the bars DPS is severely weakened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

After MoI is nerfed, that template will be severely weaker, and I don't think it will need too many serious changes, other than WE. It will basically become a snarebot with minimal damage, that can be dealt with decently by stripping their attune. Glowing is decent, but it can't keep up with constant strips and if your ranger is any form of not retarded, he'll dshot it.

When it's nerfed everyone will just switch to Me/E's. They really are not that much weaker, but they are pretty impossible to shut down. They just do 30 less damage on a spike.

Krill · Jan 23, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

I thought the best defense against squishy frontline characters with halfway-decent DPS is to just kill them?

Problem is R/As aren't that squishy in HA. A decent one will save LR as a defensive skill and they have 100 base AL vs. elemental damage, making them roughly as durable as a warrior. The only upside is they are usually featured in sway builds or other low ranked groups with a bad prot.

At any rate you're not really addressing the issue, which is fast activation attack skills, shattering assault and expertise. The same "just kill gimmicky frontline" argument could have been made about palm sins, yet they too were completely broken with flail and the first iteration of palm strike (80dmg, 14s cripple, 4s recharge).

HawkofStorms · Jan 23, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

No one cares about Codex. Let it die. For the 50 or so random people who do care.......

Oh well.

Couldn't part of the reason why nobody cares about Codex be because of stupidly OP skills in that format?

FoxBat · Jan 23, 2010, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Couldn't part of the reason why nobody cares about Codex be because of stupidly OP skills in that format?

That's true of every format. Codex has several additional problems

1) 4v4 is inheriently imbalanced in GW. It's not just a handful of problem skills.

2) Reward for codex grinding is crap if you're in the bottom 80% that can't score 5 in a row. After those people leave then the next bottom 80% is in the same situation. Every other format gives mediocre players something to grind: glad points from luck, faction win or lose from the factions modes, fame from HA, rating from GvG.

3) FotM copy-paste are the bread and butter of pugs. Having to actually think about and coordinate a new build everyday is just too much for pugging.

4) The point of codex is to come up with your own builds, but usually it's just better to copy what everyone else is doing. You have to go in and lose several times before you figure out what that is... meaning even more time before you can "really" play, and you miss most of the creativity the format is supposed to promote.

People put waaay to much emphasis on skill balance as the solution to all PvP problems. "Balancedway" has been dominant in HA for a while, it's the HoH objectives that are generally boring. Even as people shift to "honor" balance with their pblock bots, the gvg tiebreaker is still dumb. It is not contagian that is overpowered in JQ but the fast rezzes that reward suiciding. I don't need to even start on the issues in FA.

Regulus X · Jan 23, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

If Anet tested skill changes themselves [while having a good overall knowledge of all the skills in-game to know whether or not there'll be some window(s) of abuse] and went live with them thereafter, then there'd be no need to nerf said buffed skills. I think it's utterly lazy and inconsiderate of them to just re-nerf them to a far worse state than it had been before the buff took place. That's just my two cents.

Martin Alvito · Jan 23, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

it's the HoH objectives that are generally boring. Even as people shift to "honor" balance with their pblock bots, the gvg tiebreaker is still dumb. It is not contagian that is overpowered in JQ but the fast rezzes that reward suiciding. I don't need to even start on the issues in FA.

Notice that none of these formats have objectives from the Prophecies launch. HoH added emphasis on cap points and relic runs, rather than solving the real problem (people skipping to Halls with builds designed to hold by abusing the timer). That had the unintended consequence of severely limiting build flexibility.

GvG instituted a tiebreaker to resolve the problem of intentional draws, which effectively swatted a fly with a hammer. (IDing the last round of a mAT isn't a huge deal; it has some limited distributional consequences and that's it. Just reward two teams that draw with a loss in single elim and they'll take some risks, I promise.)

FA and JQ had bad objectives from the start.

*lemming* · Jan 23, 2010, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

GvG instituted a tiebreaker to resolve the problem of intentional draws, which effectively swatted a fly with a hammer. (IDing the last round of a mAT isn't a huge deal; it has some limited distributional consequences and that's it. Just reward two teams that draw with a loss in single elim and they'll take some risks, I promise.)

The tiebreaker was already in effect when the rawr zero match happened.

Martin Alvito · Jan 23, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Yes, now that you mention it, you're right. Because under the old system, it wouldn't have been possible to ID (except through /resign spike, which isn't rational).

Random variance at the stand would have led to one GL or the other winning most times.

The impetus for the tiebreaker was the continued compression of VoD to speed up ATs, no? Changing the incentives (ladder rating vs. single-elim) mid-stream to accommodate a tournament format created cause to play for VoD. As you compress the pre-VoD portion of the match, playing to VoD just becomes more and more attractive.

But eventually as players begin to stall (and play more defensively) you hit a wall where things may not be wrapped up by when the timer expires.

tealspikes · Jan 23, 2010, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Honestly, I do not find fgust to be too horrible. Sure, you can be perma-snared with it, but it requires that person to follow you around the map to do it, which is basically trading 1 for 1.

You can maintain blur on one person, fgust on another, and spike with shardstorm/rust - you don't have to restrict yourself to spamming fgust exclusively to get mileage out of it. Also, many teams are willing to trade 8 for 1 to get a moral boost (training protted target, bodyblocking) when it only takes ONE MoI ele to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimble Night

The main problem I have with Winter's Embrace is that there are already 2 non-elite spammable snares, (FGust and Shard Storm), buffing a 3rd makes the bar practically immune to shut-down. On top of this its only 5e, which is pretty stupid. Due to all these retardedly cheap and spammable snares, the only way to shut the bar down is to Powerblock it. I have never liked this skill as it puts far too much emphasis on your ping, (or interrupt bot). To deal with this pretty much everyone has switched to fast cast water eles again.

Agreed. Last time Pblock was meta nobody would run a primary ele or nec just fastcast mesmers, and I don't blame them. 1 skill that can shut down your entire bar 15/20s or force you to waste energy and miss spikes cancel casting half your skills...I know pblock isn't an easy skill - you have to have good ping and everything. But it shouldn't be powerful enough to invalidate 2 primary profession and also be able to single handedly cause teamwipes.